>> that is all the time that i have heard today i'm alicia menendez, i will se you back tomorrow. 6 pm eastern for more american voices but for now, i handed over t my colleague, ayman mohyeldin. >> hey alicia, i'm sure yo guys were like as. you had a show that was playing, you will go up this morning. and here you are

>> goodbye to that show. yes, no. >> exactly thank you very much my friend, great to see you, enjoy th best of your evening welcome to a, man over the nex two hours or bring you everything you need to kno about donald trump's statement that he expects to be arrested this coming week. the legal, financial, political, an psychological angles to it all we've got it all covered. we'r also gonna take you back t where it all started, 17 years ago, within alleged affair and to figure out how we got t this point in time. and will examine the stunning revelations this week from another investigation into trump. fulton county has another recording of alcohol trump made pressurin unofficial to overturn the results of the 2020 election i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, we began with the news that everyone is talking about fo better or worse. this morning, donald trump posted on socia media claiming that leaks from

the manhattan district attorney's office indicate tha he will be arrested this comin tuesday. to be absolutely clea nbc news cannot confirm that claim. and at this hour, there's been no official announcement from the manhatta da's office and no indicatio that charges have actually bee filed against donald trump that, said there were majo developments this week and district attorneys alvin bragg's investigation into trump's role in the 2016 hus money payment made to adul film star, stormi daniels. on, wednesday daniels herself me with prosecutors from th manhattan da's office, the sam day that homer -- michael cohe finished testifying in front o the grand jury hearing that' being hearing evidence in that case. here's cohen, a shor time ago speaking with m colleague, al sharpton >> he's trying to threaten the american judicial system tha not just alvin bragg, but fani willis in georgia, washington, any court that thinks that

they're gonna bring donald trump and. i'm gonna call fo protests. this is who we. as this is not aquatic wannabe. this is a guy that doesn't wan to be president of the unite states, he wants to be our monarch, our ruler, differ that's who he is >> late left renee and d.c news report about local stat federal law enforcement and -- are preparing for th possibility that trump will be indicted as early as next week before we get to my expert panel, i want to make one thin absolutely clear here. donal trump posted this mornin knowing that the news medi would make a big deal abou this. of course the possible arrest of a former president i big news. but on the show, w believe that he posted thi information because he wants t control the narrative. we're not gonna lattimore. we're gonna have conversations throughout the next two hour on our terms, talking abou what really matters, and doing so with the caution an sobriety that it deserves. let's bring in our all-sta panel to make sense of this.

all matthew dowd, the chie strategist for the busch taney presidential campaign, msnbc political analyst. susanne craig, investigate reporter fo the new york times animus nb contributor. we danny cevallos an msnbc legal analyst and david corn, the washington burrow to that mother jones, and contributor, good to hav all four of you with us. it' been one of those days. so bea with me. there's lots to break down here. i want to start wit you. michael cohen says that this is really all a fundraising opportunity fo donald trump. take a listen to this >> not only does he want there to be another violent protests he's also looking to do th great grift, continue the grea graft, and obtain campaign contributions off of this. oh, they're attacking your favorit presidents and me $5, send m $10 it's all part of the great grift. >> broad question to you here, matthew, to start off, you reaction to what trump's pos and why you think he decided t try and get ahead of the narrative?

>> well, all the second part versus trying to get ahead o the narrative because he doesn't want to be able to account. this is a guy tha throughout his entire life has managed to slip, slipper, push and can joel, yell, scream i way out of accountability. and now in the accountability is moving closer, and closer, and closer to mar-a-lago, he's doing the same thing using every opportunity. i actuall think it's less about raisin money. and more about what happened i advance of january 6th he is trying, you already se it through some republican mouthpieces, who say why are w doing this, as if this could cause a problem. as if we should hold off o justice because donald trump i gonna push, pull people to d things they shouldn't do. and think he knows that. i think h knows. that the sad thing abou

all of this, ayman, as he made benefit in the republica primary from an indictment >> we're gonna talk about th political fallout of this in a moment. but this is, handlin get your thoughts on. that's alvin bragg, as expected, it i not commenting on trump's post do you have any sense of the chatter behind the scene through your reporting >>, while one thing that's interesting, it was in the new york times today, this afternoon. is that there still a witness to come for th ground jury on monday. i think this is a fluid situation. i doesn't mean that won't happen on tuesday. if the grand jur comes to a decision on monda that there should be a indictment. they can mov quickly. and do it tuesday. bu potentially, we don't know how they're gonna handle be actual our rest of donald trump, if h does come and he's gonna nee some noticed a common, fro florida. they're gonna have to coordinate with as lawyers that's done in all sorts o cases. if the person needs t be physically on the, st. loui may do it differently becaus of the extraordinary nature of

this. bristol looking at a witness that's gonna be coming forward on monday. we don' know who it is. it could be summation witness from the da' office. it could be at another person likes stormi daniel could be coming. and it coul take a little bit longer. we just don't know. i have feeling donald trump, somebody may have called one of his lawyers. and told him he might have to be here on tuesday. it could be where this started. o he could've wanted to throw it out there on a saturday, see what happens. we just don't. n >> walk us through what woul happen next if in fact he' indicted next week? what might we expect procedurally >> procedurally, what normally happens and manhattan is you part to the precinct, you ge process there. then you go t central booking, get process there you wait around unti your first court appearance. and that's not what's gonn happen to trump. there is no way. there are too man problems with secret service and the fact that he has two

good protection of all times you're not gonna stick women assault with a bunch of people even it's only for a couple of hours. this is gonna b negotiated, he will be treated differently. because he is a former president. heathe security concerns. but otherwise, once he's process this case will proceed at th same glacial pace as crimina cases do in your county, and half for many years. unles they get special treatment, in which case it moves up. an that's what we need to watch for the big question becomes what do the major advanc happen, trial or otherwise relative to the election? it's the key question. and we nee to grapple with the four-yea issue, that the framers neve thought of, which is what do you do, we know you can' prosecute the sittin president. what if you prosecute approach -- and that candidate becomes the president? the whole idea of unmuted even a president is if the presiden is the one person in governmen that if you arrest him you literally arrest the entir branch. you can arrest the

supreme court justice, you can arrest the congressman. life goes on. but the president you arrest he sits in a cell, yo eras the entire executiv branch. an interesting constitutional - issue coming up. >> legally speaking, w probably don't have an answe to some of these questions could the timeline of the tria be advancer that it conclude before it potential election day? is that something tha people have talked about our discussed or considered? >> yes, judges have discretion but it might just be a trial calendar issue. of grappling with this too. judges are stil grappling with covid delays. every trial you delay, get backed up in the pipeline. can you prioritize a trial absolutely. they are mechanism for that. judges have a lot of discussion. so imagine that' what would happen here. they move it up to faster. but what of trump wants? -- wants t push this into the election. and use it politically. believ me, one where neither he's gonna use. thi >> great point there. david, there's no evidence that trump will be indicted or arrested but his comments as we mention they are newsworthy. how shoul

the media be covering this without playing into can -- hi effort to control the narrative? i need to say he probabl posted that on truth social. not a lot of followers certainly not the millions h once commanded on facebook and twitter, and instagram. bu because it is him making tha statement the media ran with that. and now it's all aroun the world. >> yeah, i think you reporte within the context this twee this post did not come in vacuum a couple months ago h posted that he wanted to pardo all january six arrestees. and a couple days ago he basically said that they did nothing wrong. those posts indicat that this is a man who's not opposed to political violence. he wants to even reward an protect the people who came ou and committed violence back on january six. when he then puts out a post today and violenc of a possible indictment and suggests that it's time to com out, hit the streets in protest, if not please do thi responsibly, he's alread

indicated that he wants, he' in favor of political violence that helps ham. i think that this should be seen, as anothe example of his authoritarian impulses. and his willingnes to go outside the law to prevent accountability., so we tend to get very worked up often is we should, in a individual outrage from trump. but we need to look at the whole continuation of what he' been doing for a couple year now. and that's why i thin this post is very troubling, i don't think it'll lead to th violence of january six, because he has not organiz anything that happened o january six. but it's out there, we giving a signal to prou boys and others, i want you in the streets defending me

because this is illegitimate >> matthew, to david's, playin from called on his supporter to protest echoing the languag he used on the run up to january six. which was organized. even marjorie taylo greene said republican shouldn't protest, you thoughts on this >> and whether or not they should protest. or -- i hope, would hope that republicans ar responsible but if a president even their president isn't indicted they allow the system to go in places like exposed t in america. i think we're in the situation where we hav allowed presidents for the las 50 years to have n accountability. i think it started with gerald ford's pardoned richard nixon, it ope the door to other people sayin they're not gonna be able to b held accountable. this ide that the sitting president can't be indicted isn't in the constitution, it's a rule that was done by a series o attorneys general. i think tha opened the door. and if this

if we get to the point where anybody is allowed to be pushe back because of donald trump's threats. where again, one step closer to the idea that we don't have a presidenc anymore. we have in a to receiver. and that's what we need to keep our eyes focuse on >> suzanne, stormi daniels spoke with new york prosecutors, if he testifies to the grand jury, could she add to thi case at this point >> well, it's a good question. and i think the grandeur eas been now looking at evidence for months now, they've been hearing various witnesses have common, and all of it goes to, what sort of evidence is out there that's not -- hearsay, that's not conversation with somebody. and they've been looking at phone records they've been looking at bank accounts, and stormi daniels may not even be called in, and if she did she's likely been mainly conversations that she' had with michael cohen, michae cohen's, other lawyers tha

have been involved. i'm no sure she'd be the wild common, i think she can add a lot to the trial, but they called her and initially to see what sh would say, previously she's me with attorneys from th district attorney's office. think they've called in th main people that they want t have, that they wanted t ground jury here already >> panel, stick around. we hav a lot more to break down. ou coverage continues after a quick break, don't go anywhere

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with my expert panel matthew dowd, danny cevallos david corn suzanne craig. how should the - da's office be reacting here let's talk a little bit abou this case. you and i were just kind o talking in the commercia break. what would the actual lega charge be potentially agains donald trump what's the crime he's accuse of committing if this is i fact indictment? >> the theory everyone's hearing is falsifying business records in new york. the default is a misdemeanor but if it's done during th commission, further anothe

crime, it can be bumped up to felony this is where the da runs into a problem, if the theory o that felony crime is a election law violation, i thin the payoffs to stormy daniels, again, i'm a deaf defens attorney so take this with a grain of salt i might have som bias the theory of liability, her election law violation is strange as it was six year ago. it's this, by michael cohe paying off stormi daniels, tha silence they got was a benefit to the campaign that wasn' reported it's not the typical electio law violation. for, example in the case o john edwards, to give you an example he wasn't convicted. is hey, he took a much money actual money, cash, whatever i was. the material benefit is money. it's very obvious. and this case, stephanie clifford, stormi daniels didn't give the campaign cas gave them her silence. >> that would've helped hi reputation wouldn't have not? could you make that argument >> if you make that argument then everything that helps you is a contribution to the campaign that must be reported

favorable news coverage, a lot of things. i know a lot of people out there howling, are sayin that's not the same thing, but the key is that the defens attorneys make it seem like th same thing to wonder we may disagree but if reasonable minds disagree, i sounds like reasonable doubt and that's a problem for the prosecution. the worst-case scenario fo alvin bragg's this, he charges the felony, it gets thrown out somehow by emotion, and alvi bragg's left prosecuting donal trump for a misdemeanor. a misdemeanor case in new york county i think that would be a real political problem for brag, an a political boom for trump >> david, you want to respon to what danny said, he's givin us the legal expertise you have a different take on why alvin bragg should pursu this case if in fact he' potentially indicting donald trump? >> i think right now it seem pretty clear that alvin bragg has got so fa down this road that it's almos inconceivable that there is no an indictment at the end o this

asking trump to come in an testify, all the time he spent with michael cohen, over 2 visits, and really seems lik they think there is a case i'm not a lawyer, i will pla one on tv, i'm not up agains danny. but the issue is that this is campaign action. that michael cohen was helping the trump campaign as a free was part of the campaign, by spending this money. which would be an in kin donation of some sort. that's why this violates new york city campaign law everything with trump' unprecedented. this is sorted, if we just sit back for a moment. and think that the forme president of the united states who is now the leading candidate -- for the two major parties fo presidential nomination in 2024 maybe facing indictment. because he had his fixer pay $130,000 to an adult film star that's kind of amazing

this is not what the founders, or any members of congress who wrote the campaign finance law had in mind. it's totally beyond what the even envision in the days of watergate. it's novel, will make it harde for any prosecutor to do anything new, and different. i'd be surprised at this point brag doesn't feel confiden enough to proceed. >> let me pick up on that poin for you, suzanne, that david talked about michael, sorry, allen brag being so far down this michael cohen spent hour speaking to the grand jury thi week after trump turned down his ow invitation to testify. does that signal anything to you about the prosecutor progress here? >> david headed out of the par here in terms of where this is at it's very far down the road. one question i don't know th

answer i wondered it, they wer far down the road on another case it seemed very strong that's the valuation case. this happens or donald trump will have a property and if he needs a back alone h will come in and he will inflate it in order to get the loan and if he's dealing with the irs, he depresses the value of things they have a lot of information about that about false records that wer submitted to banks that case is been picked up by the attorney general in ne york, it's being brought as civil case, it's going to tria in the fall. and alvin bragg was looking at that, and was fairly advance on it. he still made forward with tha case but why the stormy daniel case picked up steam and the went ahead with that first, is a fascinating question i think we may know more about it if there is an indictment and we can read the charges, read some of the evidence that they have, that they may hav picked up additional evidenc

in the last few months that we don't know about but that's just one question hanging over this, mar pomerantz, one of th prosecutors involved i developing that case he resigned over all of this and has written a book on this it's worth reading if you're a student of this. to understand it better. it's the one question i have we may learn about it if thi is now advancing to indictment we could find out some of the. evidence >> danny let me pay for you th soundbite from donald trump' attorney, he made it earlier this week. watch this defense >> even if you put in your checker i put it in for obviou reasons, or i put in my chec and i purchase a horse that's inaccurate, that's a li really but there is no crime there. because there, this filing, wa not for the purpose of influence an election, there was nothing being hidden, ther was no obligation to disclos

this to an election campaign committee. at all >> does that go in the rule of law? >> for the election la violation. it's a point to be made there, it goes back to my analysi where i compared the classic election law - where i give you a bag of money, you fail to report it. you don't. that's a classic case. the stormy daniels one is a lo more complicated than that you have michael cohen doing that, and then his reimburse do we even know if trump was the person actually signin things, he notoriously has a lot, of as they described in the godfather, buffers so, tacopina, his opponent kne may have a point there but it's also a point that the prosecution could lead into crime. so reasonable line here to differ on what the payment made to stormy daniels wer found. but by themselves, hush mone payments are not by themselves crimes weirdly enough, if you may b

demanding a hush money payment then you may be sorting of the victim >> - try and give away what a defense attorney, alvin brag might have some insights tha they are thinking? >> probably not. at the same time, you are an attorney a lot of the times you mak strategic recommendations to a client, they often do no follow it. i wrote a column on this o msnbc.com, about this exac issue. yes, rest of the panel i read things too. not as well as you do, but i d great things from time to time but the key is here, i sometimes you do not have choice sometimes the client says, i want you to go out there, ge ahead of this. and a lot of times you have to say yes or >> good to see you, it's been couple of years since i've actually seen you. good to see you. suzanne thank you so much, matthew dowd stick around, david cohen, thank you matt humanity talking about yo a little bit more in the program. i'm in a bit speaking to

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a moment not kevin mccarthy. -- from a city to see.com congressman judy chu says that she's been the target of quote the rights new mccarthy as i'm and not just from he republican colleagues, but fro white wing media outlets here's how congress -- texas congressman lance goodin spoke about congresswoman ch last month >> i think everyone, standin up for chinese communist party should be looked into, yes, question her either loyalty or competence i'm really disappointing and shocked, that someone like jud chu would have a securit clearance. and entitled to confidential intelligence briefings >> loyalty now, what could congresswoma

chu have done to lose lanc gooding's trust? she voted against creating a committee to investigate u.s china competition, which she feared would intensify anti-agent hate. for the record, 65 of he democratic colleagues also voted against that panel she also defended dominic nick -- trade interests in asia agains racist attacks from the right. so, lance getting believes congresswoman chu must b disloyal to the u.s. because she denounces anti asian hate never mind that goodin supported overturning the 2020 presidential election results. an actual act of disloyalty to our country. congresswoman chu says it best the rights ugly and fall sacculations build on th centuries long stereotypes tha chinese americans and asia americans more broadly, ar forever foreigners in their ow

land democratic congresswoman jud chu of california joins me now congresswoman, thank you for coming back on the show. great to see oh - we have a lot to talk about in terms of what we originall wanted to talk to about. that segment i just outlined i do want to get your reaction to donald trump social media post this morning, what do you make of this development >> i think that he's trying to incentivize the right to b even more sympathetic to him the fact that he would actuall announced the arrest himself makes me wonder if he's trying to do something similar to january six move, which is t get the supporters to be eve more for event in thei support. who knows what they will daryl >> when we get to your piece that you wrote on msnbc. com. you write in part, this ne

mccarthy-ism combined -- racism and xenophobic of the allegations which won' stop with ng and me, are downright dangerous. how dangerous are these attack for you personally, and for th aapi community >> i feel that lands getting put a target on my back by saying that i was disloyal and should be investigated as spy for china. it's outrageous, it' disgusting, it's downright racist because it is based o this forever foreigner stereotype that chines americans and asian american -- placed for decades but it is dangerous overall. and it comes on the heel o three years of anti asian hate when president trump calle covid-19 virus, china virus. we have 11,500 anti asian hate crimes, and incidents and wh

knows where these accusation are being spies for china coul lead it only fans the flames of xenophobia >> it seems it's become mainstream republican party. the gop in recent years ha been more focused on the sorts of culture wars, that thes racist rhetoric rather tha solving issues for the america people this racist rhetoric, i'd argu plays into the gop's main work has a whole, no? >> well, i think that thir evading society. and they're playing thei culture wars, that's clear i terms of what they're doin with the china selec committee. that's why i did vote agains the china select committee i thought it could increas enough phobia.

and guess what, today. because it was a signal to people like lansing getting, that they could accuse me, and dominic ng, of being spies for china. actually, they're not stopping there. the numbers that they're pointing out are increasin every day. including the latest ones bein the former mayor of our loca city and the former president of an esteemed committee group chinese -- benevolence so ca. they're pointing fingers, sits down scapegoating and what's really disturbing's histor could repeat itself. let us not forget now in japanese americans wer incarcerated it, didn't happen overnight. i started going after th leaders, and use that to isolate them several months later, japanese americans lost everything that they had in the camps. and it was based on an accusation of espionage by japanese americans, they're no a single case was never found. >> i'm so glad you bring u

that point because the tropes of dualit and disloyalty i think are rampant right now. we need to fight them ever chance that we get let me ask you about something that hits close to home to you district, and that's thi executive order that president biden signed this week, it's designed to increase backgroun checks he signed it while visitin monterey park, california, as mentioned 11 people were kille in a mass shooting there bac in january monterey park, is part of your district how important is this executiv order, and what did it mean to you that biden signed it while visiting your district >> while, i was so gratified that he came to the district we still have a hole that' gone through our hearts. because of the shooting, and the community had yet to heal. for the leader of the nation t come and console the familie of the 11 who were killed, a well as the nine who wer wounded, and to console th

whole community which is still traumatized, was very, ver meaningful he reflected on his ow experiences, and the victims families really appreciated it and, the fact that he had this executive order on gun safet was also very, ver significant. for instance, the shooter ma have been caught with a re flag law that is that he was mentally deteriorating, he wa accumulating ammunition, surel someone in the circle knew about it, i'm not sure tha people in the immigran community know that -- red flag law exists. so, in his executive order he is going for enhanced outreach to communities fo that and, also he's pointing to the fact that fema will go into community when there's a

natural disaster and coordinat resources. but there isn't such a thing for mass shootings, and yet th community is in utter chaos. there needs to be greate coordination of all th resources that are available and that's what he is saying i this executive order, -- >> congresswoman judy chu, thank you so much, i appreciat your time is always. >> thank you so much >> next, the 17 years of decisions, and cover ups tha brought donald trump to this moment we are gonna break it down (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! [♪♪] flonase headache and allergy relief. if you have diabetes, it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health.

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that donald trump finds himsel in, you have to understand how we got here. so, we want to take you back i time to 2006 and go through th major actions that donald trum and his associates took to bring him to the precipice of possible indictment, startin with july 2006 according to an interview, stormy daniels would give to 6 minutes in 2018, daniels meets trump at the celebrity gol tournament in nevada she says he invited her to dinner and she met him at hi hotel suite, where they ha sex. daniels is 27 at the tim trump's 60 in may 2011, stormy daniel gives an interview to in touch magazine, describing her encounter with trump and exchange for $15,000

two employees later tell cbs news that the interview neve ran because michael cohen, trump's attorney at the time threatened to sue when the publication asked trump fo comment. and then, we didn't get to 201 and trump's run for president. in june of that, here kare mcdougal, begins trying to sel a story of an alleged affair she had with trump in 2016 2007 she retains attorney keith davidson, who approaches the national enquirer about possible deal. in august 5th, the nationa enquirer secures the rights to karen mcdougal's accounts fo $150,000 but never publishes her story. and federal prosecutors late say the agreement was meant to suppress her story, so as to prevent it from influencing th election on october 8th, stormy daniels is now also represented by keith davidson, who's tells th editor in chief of the nationa enquirer that she's willing to go on the record about her alleged affair that news travels to michael cohen, and cohen negotiates deal to pay daniels $130,000 i exchange for the rights to her

story and a nondisclosur agreement. on october 27th, cohen wires $150,000 to stormy daniels's attorney on november 8th, trump i elected president. in the same month he i inaugurated, january 2017, michael cohen seek reimbursement from the trump organization for that paymen he made to stormy daniels. then, we fast forward a year october 13th, 2018 - michael cohen acknowledges making the payment to stormy daniels for the first time, bu denies being reimbursed an says it was not connected to the trump campaign they're both assertions he would like to recant on march 6th, daniels, who i now represented by attorne michael avenatti, sues trump and essential consultants ll in california in an attempt to nullify her nda, arguing tha the deal is invalid since trum never signed it.

on august 21st of that year, cohen pleads guilty to eight federal charges of tax evasion fraud and campaign finance violations related to th payments to daniels an mcdougal and he later tells a federal court in manhattan that trum directed him to make the payments jumping to august 2019, th office of manhattan district attorney cy vance subpoenas th trump organization for records related to the payments. and a year later, in july 2020 the supreme court sides with vance in a 7 to 2 ruling finding that trump is no immune from the da's subpoena. but it will take until februar 25th of 2021 before vance' office obtains trump's tax returns. on november 2nd of that year alvin bragg is elected as th next manhattan da. and that brings us to this year, 2023 in january, michael cohen meet with investigators from th da's office, a sign that alvin bragg's investigation is picking up steam at the end of the month, the new york times reports tha alvin bragg has convened a

grand jury to examine th evidence in the hush money probe, and that gets us to thi month, march on march 9th, the da's offic invites trump to testify befor the grand jury four days later, on march 13th trump's lawyer says he will no be testifying before the grand jury that same day, michael cohen testifies before the grand jur for the first time march 15th, he testifies again stormy daniels meets wit investigators from the da' office we don't know where this timeline will go next. but i have to bet donald trump never thought in 2006, 17 year ago, that when he was allegedl having an affair with stormy daniels, the actions he woul later take to keep that quie might get him indicted we will be right back. this'll help. vicks vaporub? vicks vaporub's ...medicated vapors go straight to the source of your cough... ...so you can relieve your cough to breathe easier. vicks vaporub. fast-acting cough relief.

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analyst and former federal prosecutor carol lamp. , carol i will start with yo on this follows, obviously, the infamous phone call that w have all heard 1000. times the one georgia secretar of state brad raffensperger, who is reported between him an trump, where trump infamousl pressured him to overturn th results. talk about what it means t have a second potentiall damning call to a differen part of the georgia government >> it means a couple of things first, obviously recorded phon calls are the best kind of evidence you can possibly have when you hear the defendants o the targets voice on the recorder especially important when we come - passed away in the barber 2020 to them they will prevent this particular recording fro coming into evidence so we have not one but two recordings showing that th former president was trying to

influence not only the investigation, but the actua outcome of the investigation really devastating evidenc that just plays very poorly fo the defendant in a courtroom >> matthew dowd, the four woma on the grand jury, emily kohrs -- told nbc that this phone cal lasted about four minutes. ten minutes. she recalls at one point tha trump asked speaker rawlston that she would stop him from holding a special session to overturn the election, essentially asked him who woul stop him from holding that special session. and according to kohrs, ralsto responded, a federal judge that is who. your reaction to this? >> well, we continue, as w have for a long period of time as we open up this box o donald trump, we continue to b amazed at the levels of whic he is willing to go up under and above any bounds of law an ethics and legality in this in order to maintain power in thi in the course of this --

to me, all of this is sad an is despicable. i think it is the behavior is. what offends me more, which think will offend more, othe people's, we have always known who donald trump has been. he has been fairly clear tha he is not an ethical person. what i think is what has faile us is -- one political party has enable donald trump in this, over and over and over again. there has been some instance where people have stood up and georgia is one of those. the secretary of state and the governor, to a small degree -- but this should have never got -- we should have never gotten to this point, where we are digging up this mess of donald trump. but for the fact that, along the way, he has been enabled over and over and over again and never held accountable b his own political party, who seems to refuse to put any guardrails in place to prevent this from happening again.

>> yeah, and that's a sad, thing i think, that someon like a donald trump can exis in a political ecosystem, think, is very distressing and troubling -- and it's unprecedented we use that word quite a lot with donald trump, carol and i wonder your thoughts o what might happen here - emily kohrs said that th special grand jury recommended indicting over a dozen people, which might include donald trump. walk us through what that woul mean, carol lam. if trump were indicted potentially, into differen jurisdictions at once in thi country -- >> right so, you are talking about th georgia jurisdiction and the manhattan jurisdiction these are both state prosecutions the grand jury construct i georgia is a little unusual. they have a special grand jury which is a grand jury that i heard all of this evidence

and it has allowed them to focus on just this case for as long as they need to focus o it but they don't have the powe to indict. and now the evidence is turned over to a regular criminal grand jury which, i think, i not an ideal situation because this second grand jury presumably, will not be hearin the testimony from the witnesses directly, but will in fact, be reviewin transcripts and such so, it's a knob construct. it's a construct that came about partly through the legislature and partly through case law so, it's not necessarily the construct that the legislature envisioned but that's what they have. so, if there is an indictment, if that indictment include donald trump, and if the manhattan da indites donal trump -- which, donald trump said, is going to happen on tuesday - he will have the unusual situation of facing tw prosecutions at the same tim in different states. and it's important for folks t realize that states are thei own sovereign. this is not run by the department of justice in washington they are their own sovereign with their own state laws, their own rules. and even if he becomes the

president again, he will not have the power over thos prosecutions that he does, a least nominally, over th department of justice. so, it is a lot to handle as a candidate for the presidency o the united states. >> it might also be a lot to handle for our country as well that is constantly being teste by this man and our lega system get help reaching your goals with j.p. morgan wealth plan, a new tool in the chase mobile® app. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach.

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